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I'm none too familiar with the latter, but apparently there are characters in Sherlock Holmes with the names "Greg" and "Jim." So...I'm wondering if these were also inspirations drawn for "Gregory" House and "James" Wilson? (I was already aware of Holmes/House and Watson/Wilson.)

Date: 2013-06-27 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menolly-au.livejournal.com
Huh - I've never made the connection between 'James Wilson' and 'James Moriarty' - the evil criminal mastermind :) That could be interesting :) Greg is the first name of Lestrade - the policeman who appears in a lot of the original stories, and there is also a 'Gregson' who Elementary have co-opted as their police person.


No idea if any of that was deliberate on the part of TPTB though.

Date: 2013-06-27 10:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
Ohhh. Hmmm. Evil mastermind, you say? Wilson *could* be classified as that on some occasions. ;)

I've heard that "Moriarty" was the name of the shooter in "No Reason." And that "Irene Adler" was the name of the patient in the pilot, and that those were both nods to Sherlock Holmes.

You said you only watched the first season of Sherlock, right? What made you stop watching it?

Or perhaps you enjoy the books/movie version/earlier television versions?

And are you a fan of "Elementary"?

(Loool. Sorry for all the questions.)

No idea if any of that was deliberate on the part of TPTB though.

You mean just like the similarity of the finale to the ending of Sherlock Holmes wasn't deliberate? Or the insinuation that House intended to kill Cuddy by running his car into her home wasn't deliberate?

(Lol, don't mind me, I'm in a bit of a sarcastic and pick-on-TPTB mood. But considering that the similarity of Greg and James is slight, it may very well have not been deliberate.)

Date: 2013-06-27 10:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menolly-au.livejournal.com
Yeah, Moriarty was never used onscreen for the name of the shooter if I recall correctly but I think it was used in the script.

No, I've seen all the Sherlocks (all 6! lol). I just really loved the first one and the first season but I didn't like some of the stuff in the second season. I thought Moriarty was over the top, and they took Sherlock in the same direction, and did a 'falsely accused' storyline which I've never been fond of. But I've only seen each episode once so maybe if I watched them again I'd have a different view.

I've read most of the original stories, seen bits of earlier TV versions, tried to watch the movie but didn't like it.

I like Elementary a lot, mostly for the Sherlock/Joan interaction. Holmes in that one is more likeable (most of the time) than the version in Sherlock too. Also, there's a turtle :)

I find it hard to believe that the similarity of the finale to the ending of Sherlock Holmes wasn't deliberate - considering all the Holmes references in the series. It came out very soon after the Sherlock finale too - which I think contributed to my dislike of that particular narrative device.

The names though - I've never heard, maybe if it wasn't deliberate it was subconcious?

Date: 2013-06-27 10:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
I find it hard to believe that the similarity of the finale to the ending of Sherlock Holmes wasn't deliberate - considering all the Holmes references in the series. It came out very soon after the Sherlock finale too - which I think contributed to my dislike of that particular narrative device.

If my understanding is correct, isn't it true that the original Holmes was killed off, but that Doyle faked the death due to fan outrage?

The names though - I've never heard, maybe if it wasn't deliberate it was subconcious?

That's my thought as well. (I sometimes wonder if TV writers are in fandoms for other, or even their own shows...)

Date: 2013-06-27 10:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menolly-au.livejournal.com
If my understanding is correct, isn't it true that the original Holmes was killed off, but that Doyle faked the death due to fan outrage?

Yes, that's what I've read. Doyle got sick of writing the stories and killed him off and there were mass protests to the paper (I think they were published in the paper) so he revived him.

I led you astray about Lestrade, didn't realise the first name was a Sherlock invention (which of course came after the House pilot) - thanks to [livejournal.com profile] lieueitak for the correction. So that at least is probably a co-incidence (or maybe the Sherlock writers named Lestrade after House??)

Date: 2013-06-27 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
So that at least is probably a co-incidence (or maybe the Sherlock writers named Lestrade after House??)

Ohh. That could be the case. I know a few people who were hoping for a House/Sherlock crossover when House was still on the air.

(Personally, I would have wanted a House/Law and Order: SVU crossover.)

Date: 2013-06-29 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] deelaundry.livejournal.com
My secret wish is that the Sherlock producers chose Greg for Lestrade in a nod toward House MD.

Wilson was originally going to be "Jack" (which is a nickname for John, aka JFK going by Jack), but it was changed last-minute to James. It could be for James Moriarty, which would be nice if it referenced how Moriarty/Wilson was the only equal Sherlock/House had. Or it could be because James is the #1 most popular name for males in the US, with over five million people having that as a first name, over 3% of US men/boys. (Source: http://howmanyofme.com/search/) That would make Wilson even more of the "everyman."

Or it could be because in one of the books, Arthur Conan Doyle screwed up and had Watson's wife call him "James." Which is why John Watson in Sherlock has the middle name "Hamish," the Scottish equivalent to James.

Or it could be because Hugh's father's rowing partner was named Jack Wilson and Hugh thought the duplication would be too weird.

Or it could be because Hugh's first name is James.

:D Not that I've thought about this a lot or anything.
Edited Date: 2013-06-29 04:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-29 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
:D I appreciate how much you've thought out theories for this! Thank you for sharing. <3

Date: 2013-06-27 10:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lieueitak.livejournal.com
I suppose you could make an argument that Wilson has similarities to James Moriarty. There is a respect for House/Holmes' intellect (and vice versa). Moriarty and Wilson are both extremely charismatic, successful, at least on the surface men who have great lives without much darkness. Doyle even writes in one text that Moriarty seems so good and above reproach that even suggesting otherwise would make anyone criticizing him seem nuts. Wilson at times can take on those qualities as well, I suppose. Moriarty protects criminals in exchange for obedience. Wilson protects House in exchange for friendship. Moriarty likes to create "accidents," and technically Wilson has done this as well when he sawed through House's cane lol.

I don't know which Greg you are talking about though to make a comparison. Lestrade never actually has a first name in the original text, I believe, although we do learn that it starts with a G. Even if it were Greg Lestrade, I would say they are not all that similar. House's fellows or maybe even Cuddy would seem like better Lestrade comparisons.

There's an Inspector Tobias Gregson in the original texts, who is willing to overlook when Sherlock breaks rules. He's also according to Holmes one of the smarter people working for Scotland Yard. This would seem to apply more to Chase (based on physical description) if it applies to anyone or again, maybe Cuddy.

There's also an Inspector Gregory (and a Sergeant and Constable Wilson for that matter as well), but I don't remember him much at all. I don't know that I would believe any similarities with these secondary (at best) characters were intentional though.
Edited Date: 2013-06-27 10:46 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-27 10:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
Oooh. Thank you for illustrating the similarities between Moriarty and Wilson. They are fascinating.

And that's interesting that there could be a character that compares to Chase or Cuddy.

And it's very possible that the similarities are coincidental.

Are you a fan of the Sherlock novels? Or the show? Or any related media? Lol. It's my understanding that there are many.

Date: 2013-06-27 11:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lieueitak.livejournal.com
I would say a lot of these similarities are coincidental, because a character who likes to investigate rather than think intellectually, a character who dresses well but isn't afraid to get dirty, etc - those things aren't exactly unique.

I am a fan of the Sherlock stories written by ACD, The Great Mouse Detective, and the episode[s] of Wishbone where the book featured was Holmes lol. I also like CSI's arc involving a modern version of Irene Adler, if that counts. I've seen Sherlock with Cumberbatch, which is okay (I can't get past the bullshit that is the Irene Adler storyline). I've seen Elementary, which was okay but not great (the cases felt too simple). But I stopped watching because House PTBs work on that show, and I will not support those individuals ever again. The Guy Ritchie films are embarrassingly bad lol. I don't think I've seen anything else, and I don't read the novels written by other people. There's so much out there that it's difficult to find the time to go through it all XD

Date: 2013-06-27 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
I would say a lot of these similarities are coincidental, because a character who likes to investigate rather than think intellectually, a character who dresses well but isn't afraid to get dirty, etc - those things aren't exactly unique.

I think you are right on that.

The Great Mouse Detective...is I think a Disney-animated film series? And what is the bullshit that is the Irene Adler storyline on BBC Sherlock? (You've got me curious.)

Date: 2013-06-28 03:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lieueitak.livejournal.com
Yup, it was a Disney film :)

Re: Sherlock - it kind of boils down to two things. First, the Adler character as a dominatrix was something CSI did but much, much better. Secondly, and more importantly, Sherlock's interpretation of the character negated everything important about the character in the text. I don't know how familiar you are with ACD's work so forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but Holmes held Adler in high regard because she was one of five(?) people to outsmart him. He is not sexually attracted to her but in admiration of her, because she was able to outwit him completely and escape. But in the Sherlock episode, she is all about sex and infatuation to the point where it makes her an idiot. He outsmarts her and then rescues her from being murdered. She isn't a strong character but a desperate one dependent on Sherlock to save her. To put it simply, there's something seriously wrong when a short story written in 1891 is more progressive and has a better depiction of women than something aired in 2012.

Date: 2013-06-28 03:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
Wow. I didn't realize there was such a stark difference between the Adler of BBC Sherlock and the one in ACD's work. (Thank you for explaining it; I'm not familiar with either version.)

Date: 2013-06-28 03:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stenveny.livejournal.com
My version of the series finale would reveal that all along, Gregory House has been a figment of the imagination of a gifted but very troubled recovering alcoholic novelist named Doyle, played by Robert Sean Leonard. His agent (played by Omar Epps), and his publisher, (played by Lisa Edelstein), are attempting to convince him to continue his series of novels, because they are very popular and have become quite lucrative, but he's considering a change, thinking that it's time to write something less intense and depressing. He discusses this decision with his psychiatrist (played by Peter Jacobson) as well as his personal assistant (played by jesse Spencer.) In the final scene we see him with a manuscript, telling his life partner, a sweet British pediatrician played by Hugh Laurie, that "it's done -- I killed him off."

Date: 2013-06-28 03:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
Wow. That would certainly be a rather unexpected series finale!

Date: 2013-06-28 11:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yarroway.livejournal.com
Just a quick note here--the patient in the pilot was Rebecca Adler, not Irene. It was an intentional reference to Irene, or at least I think I read that somewhere and it seems entirely too coincidental not to have been.

Later in the series, Wilson gives House a Christmas gift and the team questions him about it he uses the name Irene Adler intentionally to mess with them.

The book by Cuddy's grandfather (or great-grandfather?), Dr. Bell, is a nod to Joseph Bell, the real life doctor who inspired the character of Holmes.
Edited Date: 2013-06-28 11:41 am (UTC)

Date: 2013-06-28 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
Oh you're right, it was Rebecca. *facepalm* Sorry about that! (That's what happens when I mix my Sherlock with my Shore. ;) )

I didn't realize he used the name Irene Adler when he gave House the Christmas gift. (I always thought that the "Greg, made me think of you," was an interesting gift tag, but I never knew if it was meant to be sarcastic.)

And thanks for mentioning Dr. Bell. I had no idea about that. (Bell was the last name of Thomas as well, the man Blythe was sleeping with in Season 8 and suspected to be House's father. But he wasn't a doctor. I think in this particular case, the name Bell may have been coincidental.)

Date: 2013-06-28 05:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yarroway.livejournal.com
My turn to be wrong. I thought I'd read somewhere that the book was related to Dr. Bell, but no. The book's author is also named Cuddy, so it has nothing to do with ACD. Sorry!

Date: 2013-06-29 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
No worries! :)

Date: 2013-06-29 02:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] taiga13.livejournal.com
I don't know that there were... James seems like a natural alternative to John, but I did always wonder why they chose Gregory for House's first name.
One thing I noticed was that a couple of House patients seemed to be names Jim or Jimmy or James. I never knew if it was intentional or (more likely) they just forgot they'd used the name before. They also had a thing for using men's names for female characters: Andie, Sam, Remy.

Date: 2013-06-29 08:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] petitecuriosity.livejournal.com
I didn't know Remy was a male name. That's interesting. But you're right, they did have a thing for that.

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Date: 2013-06-30 02:04 am (UTC)
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